Retirement Income Strategies That Create Confidence and Peace Of Mind with Chris Willis, CFP®, CTS™ – Ep 109

One of the most common questions that we hear from our clients isn’t whether they’ve saved enough; it’s whether their savings can actually provide the income they need to live the retirement they’ve envisioned. Building wealth during your working years is one challenge, but turning those assets into a reliable paycheck is where a comprehensive retirement plan becomes essential.

In this episode, Keith Ellis Jr. is joined by Certified Financial Planner (CFP®) and Certified Tax Specialist (CTS™), Chris Willis, to discuss how retirement income planning goes far beyond simply withdrawing money from an investment portfolio. They explain how understanding your expenses is the foundation of every retirement plan, how different income strategies can fit different personalities and goals, and why no single approach works for every retiree.

They also break down the strengths and tradeoffs of guaranteed income, dividend-focused investing, and SHP’s bucket strategy for generating retirement income. You’ll also learn how income planning fits into SHP’s comprehensive retirement strategy that includes investments, taxes, healthcare, and estate planning.

In this podcast interview, you’ll learn:

• Why retirement income planning begins with understanding your lifestyle expenses.
• How guaranteed income, dividend investing, and bucket strategies each serve different goals.
• Why there’s no one-size-fits-all approach to generating retirement income.
• How balancing safety, income, and growth creates a more resilient retirement plan.
• Why tax planning should influence your retirement income strategy.
• How a personalized retirement plan can help you retire with greater confidence.

Inspiring Quotes

• “There is no retirement if you don’t have income.” – Keith Ellis, Jr.

• “True investment planning is not what’s the best stock in the world and all that. It’s really about driving income in terms of what they need.” – Chris Willis

• “There’s really no free lunch in the investment world.” – Chris Willis

• “You can never get your health back. You can never get time back.” – Keith Ellis Jr.

• “When we understand people’s tax goals, their legacy goals, and all that, that’s what allows us to put the full plan together.” – Chris Willis

[INTERVIEW]

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Welcome to another edition of the Retirement Roadmap podcast brought to you by SHP Financial. Today, we’re joined by our advisor in the office, Chris Willis, on Team Matt. Excited to have you here, Chris. I know one of the things that you and I were talking about prior to this podcast was, as we meet with families, and families come in and they’re setting up or getting ready to retire, I think one of the main questions I get asked is, “Do I have enough money? Can I do this? Is this possible? Or what is possible with the amount of money that I have saved?” And to me, that all anchors back to one thing, and that’s income.

Chris Willis: Correct.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Right?

Chris Willis: Yeah.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: So, when most folks come in, at SHP Financial, we believe that you need five specific areas looked at and addressed now and ongoing. That’s income, investments, taxes, healthcare strategies, as well as estate planning or legacy planning. And these five areas continue throughout your retirement because laws will change, rules will change, tax codes can change, and you need a team to be able to sit with you and address these areas as they do change. So, again, anchoring back to income, that’s kind of the main thing, and there are different ways to drive it. I always say there is no retirement if you don’t have income.

Chris Willis: Correct. Yeah.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: So, some of the families maybe that you’ve been working with or some of the situations, I guess, when you’re addressing income, what is it that you’re first kind of looking for? How are you building out the plan? Maybe take people through that.

Chris Willis: Sure. Yeah, I think the biggest thing that we really dive in on is just someone’s, like, expenses, right? And I always dive in, and I start with that too, because I want their expenses to consist of everything, right? Obviously, they’re going to add up their mortgage, their insurance, their taxes, and stuff like that. But I’m like, “No,” like “What do you want to do for travel? What about lifestyle stuff?”

Keith Ellis, Jr.: You’re not going to sit at home and watch TV all day.

Chris Willis: Yeah, exactly.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: At least I hope not.

Chris Willis: Yeah, you got all the time in the world, like, what are you going to do with it, right?

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Exactly.

Chris Willis: So, we first dive into, like, expenses and all that to make sure that we kind of, as advisors, have a target to plan around. Because I think true investment planning is not what’s the best stock in the world and all that. It’s really about driving income in terms of what they need. Obviously, when you satisfy their income, then you can be a little bit more creative and such. But, really focusing on their income, their expenses, and such like that because everyone we meet for the most part, they’re going to have Social Security. Everyone’s going to have Social Security for the most part unless you retire young. And then maybe some people are lucky enough to have pensions and such like that. But a lot of times we do see a lot of people that just have Social Security, right?

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Absolutely. I would say the majority.

Chris Willis: Yeah, exactly. And then, obviously, they are voluntarily giving up their income when they retire. So, they kind of say, “Hey, Chris, Keith, I have this portfolio. This is what I’ve saved, but I’m about to give up that salary,” or whatever that may be. How do we fill that gap? And I think that’s where SHP, that’s where we’ve had a lot of luck in explaining that. Like, “Hey, there’s numerous ways to generate income from a portfolio.”

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Correct.

Chris Willis: And I see it all the time, personal finance is personal, right? So, the way or the philosophy that you want to take to generate your type of income or the income that you need in retirement, you can go down different paths. But not one strategy fits in a specific family, right? You know what I mean? Everyone’s different. Everyone has their own way of going about it.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Yeah, you’re right. It is really, like you said, you said it best, personal finance is personal, so everyone’s going to have their own bias, philosophy, thought process around how they want to fill what we call that income gap. Take a look at your expenses. What are you getting in fixed income, whether it’s rental income, pension plans, or Social Security, something along those lines? And then most families we deal with have an income gap, and it’s how do you fill that income gap? And what I always ask folks is, most of the people we’re meeting, we’re meeting at their retirement age, a little bit after maybe, or a little bit before, but they’ve been working maybe with, or they’ve been putting money into their 401(k).

Or they’ve been working with another advisor, and their advisor’s maybe taken them through the growth phase, but now they’re looking for more of that whole… They’ve done a good job saving. Maybe that advisor working with them when they first started saving, and they’ve amassed all this wealth. And now they’re like, “Okay, well, I need to be a good steward of this wealth and be able to take care of this wealth and be able to pass this wealth or work with this wealth more efficiently,” right? Whether it’s fees, taxes, estate planning. But it’s really, I always ask them, “Okay, like, what is your advisor’s investment philosophy?” And here at SHP, our investment philosophy is you need money for certain situations, money for safety.

This is your emergency account, money that you can get at, your boiler breaks, roof leaks, you need a new car, whatever that is. Well, what we always see is people have that bucket. And then what we also see is people have one of the other buckets, and that’s that growth bucket. So, most people come in. They have most of their money in that growth bucket, and no one’s ever kind of defined that third bucket, which we call safety income, that income bucket, right? Like, how are we driving income? What assets are dedicated to drive income? And then growth. And what I always say is in that safety bucket, in that income bucket, if we can kind of draw a line right there and say, “Okay, on this side of the ledger we have X number of dollars,” and that’s going to get you through the next 10, 15 years, 20 years, we can be as aggressive or conservative on that growth bucket as you want because we technically don’t need that. See what I’m saying?

Chris Willis: 100%, yeah.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: So, a lot of folks don’t have an investment philosophy, and we do, and that’s really, I think, that helps our clients and the families we work with conceptually visualize their retirement through good times and bad.

Chris Willis: Yeah. No, exactly. And you made a good point is, like, I would say, I don’t know, 80% of the people, maybe even higher, of the people that we meet with, they say, “Hey, I have this portfolio.” And we look at it, okay, well maybe they’re 65 or whatever, and say, “You understand that you’re 95% in equities and 5% in fixed income?” And like, okay. And then we did, like, the cash flow analysis, and we’re like, “Hey, you need, I’ll just say $50,000, $60,000 a year from your portfolio when you retire, correct?” And they’re like, “Yeah, absolutely,” based on, like, the cash flow and all that. And they’re in, again, obviously, aggressive portfolios can work out really good for you, but there’s no rhyme or reason behind the equity portfolio or whatever they’re in.

So, that’s where we have luck. We’ve come, and people say, okay, well, let’s just say a client does need that $50,000 to $60,000 a year of income from their portfolio, right? How do we get that? And that’s the income sleeve of it. And I think at SHP, and I’ll kind of dive into just, like, different philosophies of that $50,000 to $60,000 a year income gap, how do you generate it? Because there are trade-offs, and I tell people all the time, there’s really no free lunch in the investment world. You know what I mean?

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Pros and cons on everything.

Chris Willis: Yeah, literally. So, often, we meet with all different types of people, and some are very conservative, whereas some are very aggressive, and some people love the stock market. Some people can’t stand the stock market, right? And they can’t really deal with some of the volatility. So, there are kind of three different investment philosophies that focus strictly on income planning. How do we take someone’s investments and generate that income? Again, I’ll just start, like, the most conservative vehicle out there. That if we meet a client that’s super conservative, really doesn’t have a taste for the market, or really enjoy it, or really stresses them out, a lot of the times we can really kind of guarantee some sort of fixed income through like an annuity or something like that.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Correct.

Chris Willis: And to come back to the part of no free lunch, annuities are… Think of like an annuity. Obviously, there are different styles, but it’s kind of like trading your investments for a pension-like income.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Exactly. You’re creating your own private pension.

Chris Willis: Correct, yeah. And obviously that comes with lots of guarantees, lots of peace of mind, whereas like, “Hey, you’re going to have your Social Security, you’re going to have this,” and you know every single month that this is going to come in.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Mailbox money.

Chris Willis: Exactly, yeah, 100%, right? And it kind of protects against longevity risk, right? Because the biggest thing that we see people worried about is, hey, am I going to run out of money, right?

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Yeah, their parents lived to their mid-90s and late 90s. They’re like, in their mind, they’re thinking the same thing, “Do I have enough?”

Chris Willis: Correct. Yeah. So, the annuity route is like an awesome route that obviously we dip our toes into a little bit with a piece of the portfolio from time to time based on the situation, and that’s again, very specific, but obviously, you have to be aware of the cons of that situation, right? Where obviously annuities are that mailbox money, the guaranteed money, really peace of mind money, but then sometimes you lack growth. Obviously, it’s not completely invested in the stock market. You lack a little bit of control.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Correct.

Chris Willis: And you’re going to have to deal with that trade-off if that guaranteed pension-like money is important to you. You just have to be aware of what’s on the back end of that. Okay. Well, you lose some control and all that, but still, some families, they really, really love that idea. They say, “Hey, I don’t care about flexibility. I don’t really care about the control aspect of it. If you can guarantee me this, then I’ll be happy.”

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Sure. They can sleep at night.

Chris Willis: Correct. Yep. So, I think the annuity route we dip our toes into a little bit because it can be a good solution for some families, not all families by any means, right? So, that’s kind of philosophy number one is, okay, do you want guaranteed income? We can go down this route. But then other options are some people say, “Hey, I like the idea of guarantees, but I don’t like the lack of flexibility.”

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Sure.

Chris Willis: So, okay, cool. If that’s a concern, then we X off that box. We move on to number two. And where we also have been recently, obviously, it helps that interest rates are high. It’s like the dividends and the fixed income type of strategy, where if clients want more flexibility, but you still do need to rely very heavily on your portfolio for income, right? You need it not necessarily for growth, but for income. The dividend portfolio isn’t trying to achieve maybe a 5% to a 7% yield via dividends, right? And I say dividends, I mean dividends and interest, because you can obviously mix in some high-yield bonds, private credit, and stuff like that. The dividend strategy has been one strategy we’ve actually had a lot of luck because it has flexibility.

Obviously, dividends aren’t completely guaranteed like an annuity would be, but it has a lot more flexibility to it. So, the dividend strategy, and I guess I could give our explainers a quick rundown of dividends. Basically, I explain this to clients as you’re trying to live off the interest that your portfolio produces.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: And that’s what a lot of people come in and be like, “That’s how my parents lived. You know what I mean? So, I want to try to replicate that strategy.” And the problem is in the late 2000s, 2010s, for lack of a better way of putting it, interest rates were just, like, zero. So, that really wasn’t that option, so you did look more towards a strategy like that. So, yeah.

Chris Willis: Correct. Yeah. So, I see a lot of people who, like, it’s funny, I can think of a client right off the top of my head. The first time I met them, they said, “I want to live off my dividends.” And then that principle, because the dividends, obviously, they produce, I’ll say 5% yield, right? But that stock or that equity ETF or whatever that may be, obviously, there’s crazy like cover call strategies nowadays, that should still get some sort of appreciation.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Yeah, they can fluctuate upwards, which is nice.

Chris Willis: Yeah. So, the whole idea is income plus some moderate appreciation. And I can think of a family who said, “Chris, I want to live off the dividends. Give me 5% to 6% yield, and whatever that basis is, I want that to go to my kids and grandkids.” So, it’s kind of like a really personalized plan, where you can use dividends and fixed income, private credit, real estate investment trusts, or whatever that may be to drive that 5% to 6% yield, live off that 5% to 6%, let the basis kind of grow, and pass on to family.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Yeah, and the good news, it can be quite diversified.

Chris Willis: Yeah.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: So, it’s not all eggs in one basket strategy. You could have 12, 15 different ETFs or funds in there. Some might pay a little bit higher, maybe a little bit more risk. Some might pay a little bit lower, a little bit less risk, diversified throughout to get you to that 5% yield.

Chris Willis: Yeah, and I think that’s a nice, good note, Keith, because, like, a lot of the concern with dividends is like, “Hey, Chris, that 5% yield is not guaranteed.” I’m like, “Yeah, it’s not guaranteed. I can understand that.” But again, we’re not investing in individual stocks like J&J or Coca-Cola or whatever, who are dividend payers. We’re doing a huge, broad mutual fund, ETF, some covered call strategies, some private credit strategies that, like, the yield, yes, it’s still not 100% guaranteed. There are obviously market fluctuations. But if you take that and really diversify it out, there’s a good chance that you’re going to stay around that 5% target because of all the diversification around it.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: And if something does slip, you could tap a different part of the market. And obviously, the market shifts, so there might be more opportunity as the market moves as years go forward. And that’s why our team, our investment team, and investment committee is so important to us because we’re able to rely on them. “Hey, look, Mr. and Mrs. Jones are looking for a 5% yield, relative high quality. Da, da.” And they come back to us with different strategies to help us achieve that goal. But not only that, we’re monitoring that ongoing, so as things change, we can bring in new ideas, new strategies.

Chris Willis: Yeah, 100%, right? So, I think the dividend strategy has been… Again, it’s not easy to do, but it’s been easier with higher interest rates, right?

Keith Ellis, Jr.: The cons are.

Chris Willis: Yeah, and then the cons are the people who, because obviously, again, the idea is that dividends, there’s no guarantees, right? So, the basis of the portfolio, I’ll make up a number, say it’s a million-dollar portfolio that yields 5%, right? Obviously, that’s $50,000 of income that it can generate, but also, that million dollars is going to move up and down.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Correct.

Chris Willis: So, if basically the client is extremely conservative, then the dividend strategy might not be the best strategy for them because if market volatility causes concern, well, yeah, you might still be getting your 5% yield. But obviously, the million-dollar basis, it’s kind of just education and letting them know that that can happen. So, the cons of that are that it is still fully subject to market risk, and there are no guarantees.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Yeah. And I have clients that will layer both strategies.

Chris Willis: 100%.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: They’ll say, “Hey, look, I have a million-dollar portfolio. I need to get 50,000 a year off my portfolio, 5%.” Hey, let’s take X number of dollars, put it into an annuity that gives them that guarantee. And then they’re willing to use the dividend strategy over and above that. And they’re okay with that fluctuation. It’s almost like splitting the, it’s almost making a very conservative like say the dividend portfolio is more of like a moderate to even maybe sometimes moderate aggressive strategy that brings back the risk of that overall.

Chris Willis: Correct. Yeah. And that’s what’s neat, too, is I think, as we dive into, like, all these different philosophies, I would personally say very rarely do you see them sit by themselves.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Correct.

Chris Willis: You know what I mean? It’s usually these are, like, the ideas. These are the kind of, like, the tools in the toolkit. You have these three different philosophies, whether it’s annuity, dividend, and I’ll get into number three in a second. But very rarely do you see them sit by themselves. You know what I mean? They usually blend them all together and kind of complement each other, right? Because it’s almost like not one answer is the perfect answer. You have three really good options here. Why don’t we blend them all together?

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Absolutely. And this is where kind of sitting down with our team and working through different ideas, different strategies, kind of answering that question, “Can I retire?” I sat with someone last week, and I’ve been telling him for two years. I’m like, “Listen, you can retire whenever you want.” He’s done a really good job saving. We’ve built his plan. We know where we’re drawing funds from. That’s another thing that I see. I sat with a couple, what was it? About a week, week and a half ago, and we started to look at their tax return, and they’re pulling money from all these different buckets because they don’t have an advisor that’s ever wrapped their arms around everything, kind of showed them the best path forward. And I think that’s what we do a really good job of.

Chris Willis: Yeah.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: They were pulling money and creating additional taxes that they did not need to be paying. And they could be doing tax strategies had they, on some of their other assets, had they not generated that income. So, they came on board, started to work with us, and now they have a plan going forward to kind of tackle taxes over the next 15, 20 years and save them quite a bit of money overall. So, that’s when we’re, like I said, sitting down with folks, going through that safety income growth methodology. “Okay, look, here’s what we need to put in your safe bucket,” or, “Here’s what you’re comfortable with seeing at the bank or in a money market fund,” that money can get at your fingertips on in a day or two, right? Then here’s what we need to put in your income plan using one, two, three different strategies.

We’ll get to the third one here in a minute. Then the rest can go in that growth bucket. But then at SHP, what we’re also doing is, like, saying, “Okay, we have your income plan built. Now let’s layer on all these other strategies to make the whole plan even more efficient.”

Chris Willis: Yeah. No, and I couldn’t agree more, Keith. Like, again, I’ll get into the third option, but what you’ll see is that when we decide on the type of income that we’re going to generate, whether it’s an annuity, whether it’s dividends, or I’ll get into what we call the bucket theory or the bucket approach there. Honestly, the tax status of the money that we have to deal with, whether they have a bunch of cash, IRAs, 401(k)s.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Appreciated stock, whatever it is.

Chris Willis: Appreciated stock, yeah. So, basically, when we meet with them, and we understand underneath the hood a little bit of the tax status, that inherently will drive one of these philosophies. See what I mean?

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Yes, absolutely.

Chris Willis: So, yeah, and then I’ll dive into philosophy number three for a second, which I would say this is the type of client that the most important thing to them, because obviously, again, we can generate income in various ways, but for those where the most important thing to them is flexibility, right? When a client is, hey, maybe they’re traveling a lot, maybe they want to give to grandkids, kids, or whatever that may be. If they really, really value flexibility, then we kind of do what we call it at SHP, it’s I think it’s across the industry too, we call it the bucket approach or the bucket theory. And long story short, really what it is, it’s kind of like a lot of mental accounting as well, where just mentally you start to build out different buckets.

We’re talking a lot about buckets, but within that income bucket or that income sleeve of your portfolio, you’re going to build in buckets within it. And what I mean by that is, again, basically let’s just say, I’ll go back to the example I had earlier, a client needs $50,000 to $60,000 a year from their portfolio. Okay, well then maybe 150,000 goes into extremely conservative stuff with money markets, CDs.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Sure. TIPS.

Chris Willis: TIPS, treasuries, right? Because that 150,000, that’s their income for the next three years.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Correct.

Chris Willis: So, basically, you need to set up maybe anywhere from one to three years of income in this super conservative bucket. And the client just knows mentally that that is the account that they’re going to be withdrawing from for the next three years. And then you move on to bucket two. Let’s just say that’s years three through seven. Well, then that’s still going to be relatively conservative, maybe moderately conservative, maybe a diversified mix of an equity and fixed income portfolio where, again, you’re not throwing all at the markets, but the idea is that bucket, call it years three through seven, as bucket one starts to get wind down because you’re living off it, then you start to replenish it.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Yeah, you shift it over.

Chris Willis: Yeah, you start to shift it over year-over-year depending on what the economy, what the market’s giving us, right? And then lastly, maybe the more fun bucket is bucket three. Well, bucket one, you have super conservative. Bucket two, you’re basically middle of the road there. And then bucket three, well, then that is seven, eight, nine years down the road. So, that’s where we can really start to drive growth. And really…

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Kind of have to.

Chris Willis: Yeah. Every investment plan needs growth.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Growth. I would agree, yeah.

Chris Willis: Yeah. You need to account for inflation, right? Obviously, I go to the gas station nowadays, and we know it’s double what it was two, three months ago.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Three kids, a Chevy Suburban, it hurts.

Chris Willis: So, basically, every investment portfolio does need some sort of growth. So, I think that’s what we focus on. We call it bucket three. That’s where you get into the equity markets, ETFs, mutual funds, maybe some individual stocks if you like to play in that space. You could even, again, our investment committee does a phenomenal job introducing private equity nowadays, because the private markets are becoming very popular. So, again, we don’t really touch the private space in buckets one and bucket two, but if you know you have seven, eight, 10 years down the side.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Yeah, you have the timeline that dictates it.

Chris Willis: Yeah, exactly. So, that’s, again, we really like the idea of when it comes to generating income, having like different buckets for different timeframes. But most importantly, you’ll realize that regardless if it’s bucket one, bucket two, bucket three, when it comes to income generation, every single one of those buckets is fully flexible, right? So, that’s the type of client, if they want, if they’re traveling a lot, like I said, or they want flexibility, well, then that is the kind of between the annuity approach, dividend approach, I would say the bucket approach has the most flexibility for the client. So, if that’s a really big driving factor, and of course, they can stomach some market volatility, I think that’s a path that we’ve often gone down.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Yeah, so the real con is market volatility.

Chris Willis: Market volatility. Exactly, yep.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: So many people, I don’t know if you guys as well, but so many people come in, like I said earlier, and they could have retired. And what I always say is you can never get your health back. You can never get time back. And I like to tell people, “Hey, when you…” Some people still want to go to work.

Chris Willis: Yeah, yeah.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: But it’s empowering to know that it’s more of a want than a need.

Chris Willis: Yeah.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: And I think having an income plan, a dedicated strategy, a dedicated plan, helps people give confidence, whether it’s confidence to enjoy their retirement, gift in retirement, take that extra trip, kind of live the retirement that they envision. But the problem is most people don’t know. They’ve done a really good job saving their 401(k). They’ve been working 25, 30, 35 years, head down, driving to work, putting their money away. But they never pick their head up just to kind of see where they’re at.

Chris Willis: Yeah.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: So, if you’re one of those listeners out there that just kind of want to know what’s possible in retirement, “Have I saved enough? What is my income strategy? Why am I pulling from this bucket?” Or just want a second look at what you’re currently doing, feel free to reach out at shpfinancial.com. Again, we believe that every retiree needs a holistic retirement plan, a dedicated income strategy. Where are you taking money from? Why? How are you going to take Social Security when that time comes if you haven’t? Then we start to build investment strategies, whether it’s, like Chris said, a lot of it’s based around income because you need that income to drive your retirement, but then after that, what do we want that growth bucket to look like?

Then we start to look at taxes and start to build strategies to help better position both you and your family’s long-term healthcare strategies, and then the final thing is estate planning kind of tying this all up. And ourselves and our team manage this now and ongoing for each of the families we work with. So, again, if you haven’t set up a plan, if you’re looking for a second opinion, or you just want to know what’s possible with what you have saved, which I think is kind of the fun part of our job kind of telling people, “Hey, yeah, you can go live your retirement dreams. You can go do this,” feel free to reach out, shpfinancial.com. Any other thoughts on income, just, yeah, basically?

Chris Willis: No, yeah. I think overall you wrapped it up nice where it’s like obviously at SHP we try to do the five worlds. Income is the driving factor of that. But when we understand people’s tax goals, their legacy goals, and all that, that’s what allows us to put the full plan together. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I think income is the base of it, but really, people’s goals and what they’re trying to accomplish eventually leads to all that.

Keith Ellis, Jr.: Exactly. And like you said, everything is so individualized. People come in, they are super conservative, or they are more aggressive, and it’s really kind of build that plan. And to me, and my team, that’s the fun part. It’s like that’s the best part about my job personally, is like not everything’s the same. You know what I mean? It’s really putting together that plan for that individual family. So, again, if you want to take a look at what’s possible for you and your plan, shpfinancial.com. Thank you all again, and look forward to seeing you next time right here on the Retirement Roadmap podcast

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